It’s like Kafka’s parables, though. Even if we know it’s a pipe dream, we still have faith in it. It’s not a matter of rationality or not, it just makes the world more tolerable to live in. Just like faith in God: he’s not really directly provable or improvable, but I have faith in Him as He makes my life seem better whether he exists or not.

You should read Kafka’s parables. It explains a lot about religion, and they’re pretty short, too.

You don’t -need- to disagree with me ;)

To quote omo:

Did you see my response to omo? ;)

Yeah, if you interpret it as a singular entity with the ability to have a concrete interest or will.

“It doesn’t reduce it to pure lulz, for sure, but this isn’t JUST R2 21—it’s a problem that’s present at almost every turn (get it? get it? “turn” olol I kill myself). R2 21 is a wonderful scapegoat for some, but really it’s not THE MOMENT when stuff goes downhill.”

I think most of the first season and a plurality of the second either lacks this problem or suffers from it to a much lesser degree (as opposed to having other flaws, yes, but YMMV).

There are definitely earlier instances of “stuff going downhill”, perhaps mostly notably the China arc, but after all, 21 is the episode where the most WTF, random and lulzy stuff happened, to put it in those terms. It is certainly far worse than others in that respect. Ninja Sayoko is fairly random but utterly mundane in comparison.

“When you add up all the “things that hurt an episode” you have an incoherent story. And, like I said, the characters become less believable every time they don’t question the random shit that’s going on around them.”

To quote omo:

“I think Geass is coherent enough. It’s holely rather, which makes it more internally inconsistent than incoherent.”

Other than the Sword of Akasha stuff, I don’t really think the characters failed to question the “random shit” too much, at least by anime standards, unless one places unrealistic expectations on them (after all, the viewer has a completely different and near-omniscient vantage point, from which one can easily break suspension of disbelief).

If you say this “God” doesn’t have a concept of “good” or “evil”, then why would it even care about self-preservation?

That doesn’t follow. It would make sense to me for the entity to be interested in survival yet lack a moral compass (Hobbes, etc.).

That does hurt the episode, from my perpsective, but doesn’t reduce it to pure “lulz”.

It doesn’t reduce it to pure lulz, for sure, but this isn’t JUST R2 21—it’s a problem that’s present at almost every turn (get it? get it? “turn” olol I kill myself). R2 21 is a wonderful scapegoat for some, but really it’s not THE MOMENT when stuff goes downhill.

When you add up all the “things that hurt an episode” you have an incoherent story. And, like I said, the characters become less believable every time they don’t question the random shit that’s going on around them.

I assumed that, being a collective, it was a mass made up of numerous smaller wills, lacking individuality and sentience only as a whole. It couldn’t really “act” until Lelouch ordered all those wills to focus on something in particular. Say, akin to Geassing a crowd and having it move as one, becoming more than the sum of its parts. Except, of course, this was a crowd in a metaphysical plane and whatnot.

I will admit that the show didn’t explain what happened in significant detail, which leaves us with either dismissing it all as nonsense (what you’ve done) or coming up with external interpretations (what I’ve done) using what little actual information we do have. I don’t think everything has to make perfect sense, just enough for the show’s purposes.

That does hurt the episode, from my perpsective, but doesn’t reduce it to pure “lulz”. The events of R2 21 still have their place in the plot and aren’t irrelevant to the ending.

“P.S. a large part of my 8 is for the lulz.”

Which makes it all the more curious that -not being particularly interested in lulz- I managed to give it a 6.5, rounded up to a 7.

But uh… it’s not sentient. It’s passive and unthinking. It just sits there. When does it do anything? We don’t even know if it’s a judge of “good” or “bad”—all we know is that it’s some ball in the sky that Charles wants to destroy. For all intents and purposes, Lelouch uses his Geass at that moment to do three things: first, he gives Jupiter consciousness; second, he gives Jupiter the power to destroy the Sword of Akasha; third, he orders Jupiter to use this power.

… What?

And beyond that, there’s still a context with rules in R2 21. Even if you say that they’re in some sort of metaphysical plane, the scene still should be relying on everything the show has set up up to that point (like the fact that Lelouch’s Geass doesn’t do what it does in that scene).

P.S. a large part of my 8 is for the lulz.

I don’t pretend to say that the show isn’t flawed or dumb, just not to the same extent others would argue.